003: Deep Rooted

In this episode, host Merle Massie speaks with director Kyle McDonnell and producer Van Wickiam about Deep Rooted — a 33-minute documentary tackling the mental health crisis in Canadian agriculture. Filmed in Saskatchewan, Quebec, and Ontario, the film profiles farmers who speak openly, for the first time, about their struggles with mental health. The result is raw, moving, and deeply powerful.

In this episode, we hear from farmers Darryl Boersma and Lynn Cronk (Ontario), rancher Kole Norman (Saskatchewan), and farmer Lesley Kelly (Saskatchewan). We also drop in on a Saskatoon screening at the Broadway Theatre, where the response is clear: suffering in silence is not the answer.

Through Deep Rooted, McDonnell and Wickiam aim to dismantle shame and silence, replacing it with connection, courage, and community support. Produced by Public Space Productions, the film is being screened at agricultural events across Canada and is available for business and community showings. As the filmmakers emphasize, farmers and their families are often quite isolated. They say the best way to experience Deep Rooted is together, in a room with other people. Find out how to bring a screening to your community.

We’ve included the full transcript below.

Podcast Transcript: Deep Rooted

[00:00:00] Merle Massie: Hey, hello. Come on in, on this episode of, Hay, Are We Okay?

[00:00:08] Darryl Boersma: "You know, men have this, this box, which they're supposed to live in, in, right? We're supposed to be the leaders. We're supposed to be the tough ones. We're supposed to be the one that stands up for our household. We're supposed to be, you know, all this and all that, right?

And, and if you step outside the lines of that box, you, you get, uh, you know, ridiculed and, uh. And showing weakness is not within that box, right?"

[00:00:36] Merle Massie: Men who are stoic. Who are proud, who fix things. So what happens when you can't see exactly the thing that's broken when it's the farmer inside who's broken? That's deep rooted. We will meet the two filmmakers who made this [00:01:00] documentary and hear what pushed them.

I'm Merle Massie, I'm the executive director of The Do More Agriculture Foundation, and this is, Hay Are We Okay?

[00:01:17] Kyle McDonnell: Hi, my name's Kyle McDonell. I am, uh, the writer and director of the documentary Deep Rooted um, which explores the mental health crisis in farming in Canada.

[00:01:27] Van Wickiam: I am, uh, Van Wickiam. I'm the producer of Deep Rooted and a Toronto based, uh, I guess producer, editor, filmmaker,

[00:01:36] Merle Massie: Van Wickiam and Kyle McDonnell created Deep Rooted.

It's an independent short Canadian film making its way onto the big screen at film festivals, at small town theaters, regional fairs, and agricultural shows. Deep Rooted shows a side of farming we don't usually see at the movies.[00:02:00]

[00:02:04] Lynn Cronk: "And so here I am 12 years old and my father's in a depression, and I'm telling him what to do just to keep him from doing anything stupid or what. I've seen him, uh, be non-functional for like every day. He just couldn't go near a cow. He couldn't go near the barn because it associated with I'm never gonna get the work done. I'm not making any money. I'm scared of losing the place. There's no safety net for you. You're just flying on the on your behind because at any moment, one thing environment, rain, sun, the market, like you have no control of it."

[00:02:47] Merle Massie: I sat down with Kyle McDonnell and Van Wickiam to talk about Deep Rooted. I started by asking Kyle where the idea for this documentary came from.

[00:02:58] Kyle McDonnell: Yeah, so I, I grew up on a [00:03:00] sheep farm outside of Godrich, Ontario, and as my mother was retiring from the farm, she was receiving some periodicals, um, mostly from the OFA [Ontario Federation of Agriculture] that were starting to very surface level mention, um, mental health in agriculture in around 2017, 2018.

Um, and so I picked up on that pretty quickly. And I brought that to Van who we, we'd worked on a number of projects before, and, uh, Van's not from a farm background, but he's someone that like, we've collaborated. So I, I brought it to him and said, Hey, this is like, this is a huge issue. This is something that no one's talking about.

Um, I think we need to really explore this in greater detail. Um, and that's sort of when we really started diving into it.

[00:03:47] Van Wickiam: Um, it was shocking to me. I was completely unaware to the degree in which mental health, you know, was an issue in agriculture. And the [00:04:00] projects that I kind of have been interested in are geared towards mental health and, and trying to better understand those things.

And so, you know, I was both shocked and intrigued and felt, you know, like Kyle said, there was a great opportunity to shine a light on something, uh, and not just, you know. It wasn't just surprising to learn about it, it was surprising to learn about how little there was out there because it felt just like such a natural story, you know, where there's a suffering happening that isn't kind of happening in, in, in silence.

And, the fact that there wasn't within Canada that much that was capturing these stories from a film perspective, it just was, you know, it felt like, you know, an opportunity for us to do something that is both. Interesting from an artistic standpoint, and then also meaningful from, from like an activist, you know, bring something to light.

So yeah, I was, um, I was all over it when I first heard about it, and, here we are several years later, finally getting it out there. But, it's been, [00:05:00] it's been a journey and it's been difficult at times. But, you know, I'm, I'm very thankful that Kyle, you know, shared that first sort of few stats with me that were kind of that initial hook into the project.

[00:05:12] Merle Massie: Kyle, as you were shaping this as the director and you're thinking through how to shape this story, what stood out for you?

[00:05:21] Kyle McDonnell: I think just capturing sort of what it feels like to be on a farm was the first like step we wanted something that would resonate with farm culture and sort of working around that like, hyper-masculine Clint Eastwood type farming image that a lot of people empathized with. So we wanted to sort of capture some of that in the visual language for the film. So it's something that, you know, these are, these are just regular farmers talking for the first time. This isn't some super slick, high glossy documentary.

This is something that feels grounded and down to earth and personal. And so that was something we [00:06:00] tried to bring each step of the way. So we shot on a mix of digital and then 16 millimeter film to get that sort of grainy look. Um, for the music we went with like a lot of string instruments, very like calm, like sparse, minimal, but like enough to underscore key moments and, and drive up the drama and highlight the character stories.

It was all about like creating the language that would resonate the most. 'cause like that's, that's the main goal for us is like resonating with farmers and connecting with them. Anything that could help us achieve that was like the number one thing we were aiming for.

[00:06:36] Merle Massie: How did you choose which farmers would be part of the documentary?

[00:06:41] Van Wickiam: It was tough!

[00:06:42] Kyle McDonnell: We interviewed, I don't even, yeah, I don't even know how many like preliminary research interviews. Some of them were people that wanted to share their stories, but didn't want to be on the film, um, which we're incredibly grateful for all those, those people too, they shared a lot that [00:07:00] helped us form, uh, the key highlighted like points that we wanted to explore.

One of the things we looked for when we were casting was the stressors. So we wanted to make sure we were covering number of key stressors and, and balancing our individual characters' journeys to highlight each other, so we didn't wanna highlight the same idea multiple times. We wanted to showcase different perspectives.

There was a geographical element as well. We knew we were gonna film in Ontario, Quebec, and Saskatchewan from day one. Um, that's where the experts are. And we're located in Ontario. So I grew up on a farm, Ontario. I wanted to film someone from Ontario. We ended up finding two incredible farmers from Ontario.

So we upped our original plan for three farmers to four because there were two that we just, we could not share their stories. And I think one of them makes the backbone of the film entirely, so that was not an option to not include them. I don't know Van, if you have anything that helps, like how we

[00:07:57] Van Wickiam: Yeah, I mean, I think

[00:07:58] Kyle McDonnell: specifically targeted those ones.

[00:07:59] Van Wickiam: Uh, [00:08:00] you, you hit on like a lot of the points. We were looking for people that could offer, their stories that were there, you know, there was some level of comfort with being vulnerable and getting, and speaking kind of about the issue in a way that we hadn't heard spoken about before. And I feel like, you know, each of the farmers approached their stories in different ways.

And I think, um, we're a small team. We're, you know, not able to make a, you know, a massive long film. So it's like, how can we find people that can kind of create a universal, almost entry level discussion. It, it's, yeah. It's, it's a tough thing to do. And I, you know, feel very lucky that we, you know, we were able to find the farmers that we did, that were able to come across as, as naturally and comfortable on camera was just like, it was like a dream from, from a filmmaking standpoint because it's, it's very easy to be stiff on camera, you know?

And I know for me, camera guy ever [00:09:00] flips on me, I'm like deer in the headlights. So there was something, I feel like as we were interviewing the folks we were, we were chatting with, we had a good sense that they would work well on camera and uh, and you know, we were able to develop a little bit of a, a relationship with them through doing our, our early conversations.

And, yeah, it, I think it worked well.

[00:09:20] Merle Massie: Were there any particular criteria that you were looking for?

[00:09:23] Kyle McDonnell: It evolved and changed, I think, over as we found certain people.

We would change what we were looking for in the next person. So we started this sort of step by step. We wanted to represent different types of agriculture, and we wanted to highlight the key stressors, and, and people that could share their stories. So there wasn't like a hard and fast, like we were trying to check boxes.

We, we mostly wanted people that like we felt we could connect to and that were willing to share. And that would present like a good story for us to tell in the documentary and that had never talked publicly before. That was our one main criteria I'd say. We didn't want someone who had talked [00:10:00] numerous times at like trade shows.

We wanted people who was their first time sharing their story.

[00:10:06] Merle Massie: Why? Why was it so important to make sure that it was somebody's first time sharing their story? You are deliberately choosing people who are willing but have never, never done it before. What was your motivation for that?

[00:10:20] Kyle McDonnell: We're trying to break down stigma with the documentary and I think, showing that these people can do this for the first time and they aren't names that the farming community might recognize from an article they read before. Like, these are fresh voices and we're giving them a platform to tell their journey. And I think that we felt would be the best way to resonate with new people who hadn't experienced this story before.

[00:10:44] Van Wickiam: I think there is a level of, you know, where the stories aren't polished that they're sharing. They're kind of working through some, you know, I felt like at times, you know, working through some of these during the interview where we're hearing some answers that they haven't [00:11:00] delivered um you know, a bunch before, which I think made, made for their storytelling to, to, yeah, to feel authentic.

And, you know, it, it is interesting though to be able to show our audience that, that could be you. You know, you don't have to be this person that's actively out in the community trying to be, being a public speaker and, and having done it and everything. This could be, you know, really anybody that is willing to speak up.

And I think that's kind of speaks to a key kind of objective of the film is to destigmatize, to encourage people to speak up and share their experiences and, and try to show them folks that they might recognize in their community, you know, as a neighbor or as you know, somebody they might see. And not having it be super polished, I think lent itself to some authenticity and, and how they were sharing their stories with us

[00:11:51] Darryl Boersma: "As much as farmers help each other out, and we do for sure, I think we [00:12:00] only do it as an industry kind of when we really know something's there, when it's something tangible, right? Um, hey, you're struggling with cancer. You're having a hard time getting your crop off. You know, all the neighbors show up and we have a, you know, we all help out with the combining kind of thing, right? But supporting each other in a, in a non concrete way, um, is maybe still lacking a fair little bit. I think."

[00:12:24] Kole Norman: "I've heard a lot of people say, oh, you have anxiety or your depression. Well just get over it. Just be happy. Like, why are you sad? Like, I'm a tough guy too. But if you're dealing with mental health problems, like that's different than physical problems. Like I'd, we rather deal with the physical issue or a fight than deal with a mental health battle 'cause. The physical fight's way easier to win. I know that for sure."

[00:12:46] Merle Massie: So you've, you've put this amazing work in you, you organized the people. They, they came to the table, they were fresh, they were raw, they gave their stories. You wove it all together. And we have a final product of Deep Rooted. [00:13:00] You've also taken Deep Rooted on, on what's called the film festival circuit. Can you give us a quick overview of what that looks like?

[00:13:09] Van Wickiam: Yeah, so when you finish a film, especially for us as independent filmmakers, you're not gonna just immediately have it in theaters playing in cineplexes across the country. You need to get distribution and when you're, you know, as indie as we are getting distribution, uh, can only kinda of happens through visibility.

You look at where there's film festivals happening and kind of. You're submitting to, you know, something like a TIFF or a Hot Docs, a, a film festival that has, you know, a high profile where people are gonna be able to see it and be able to engage with it, and potentially lead to a sale to lead to distribution.

But it also is giving you, you know, a profile for the film. You know, that you can say that you've shown it to, you know, a group here, a group there. And so we played at Yorkton, which is a fantastic opportunity for us. It allowed us to kind of [00:14:00] come back to the province and, and screen the film and, uh, you know, there's a mix of all these filmmakers from, you know, all over the world, and then locals as well.

And to be able to kind of share the film, you know, with that mixed audience is something that was, that was really cool.

[00:14:15] Kyle McDonnell: Yeah. I meant a while ago, I think you, you described it as, kinda like building a resume for the film. You're like building a list of like awards and, and festivals and stuff that gives it some merit and some movement to help get it out there. The truth is, if we had just finished the film and the next day uploaded it on YouTube, it would probably be sitting at 97 views on YouTube right now. But because we're building resume and we're having conversations like this with you, Merle, that that it really gains traction and we can actually get it out there because we want farmers to watch it. That's the end goal, and the more we can do to sort of increase its profile, the wider its reach will be.

[00:14:51] Merle Massie: So you said that you'd like to have farmers watch the film. What do you hope they see? What do you hope they take away from the film?

[00:14:58] Kyle McDonnell: The, the main goal [00:15:00] is de-stigmatizing mental health and mental health care and mental wellness. So, sort of showing that it's okay to not be okay, as cheesy as it is, or like, it's okay to seek mental health support and it's normal and other farmers are doing it, um, this like suffering and silence kind of idea. Like that doesn't need to be the answer. Um, that there are ways to help alleviate chronic stressors and to address mental health.

And, you know, if, if that message resonates with only a couple people that ever did a documentary, then I think we've done a terrific job. We share resources in the film and we want to partner with groups like Do More Ag, for screenings to sort of target communities and, and help get the film out there and get that message heard.

[00:15:41] Merle Massie: Is there anything in the documentary that, that people should know or be warned about?

[00:15:49] Kyle McDonnell: So it does it, there is some pretty graphic descriptions of suicide in the film, and so we sort of want people going in to know that like, the, this discusses some [00:16:00] pretty severe themes and some severe issues, um, quite honestly and openly.

I know Van, you felt strongly about as well, like just making sure that we had that respective boundary at the start.

[00:16:11] Van Wickiam: Yeah, for sure. I think, um. It's irresponsible to, you know, potentially share with an audience that's not expecting, you know, things to go that direction. And I know for us, just even, you know, sitting through the interviews, some of these, you know, it was quite challenging for us.

And it can be a tough watch at times. Like, this is what you're getting into. We're gonna talk about this, we're gonna get real about it. And just wanna give you a heads up basically.

[00:16:38] Merle Massie: As you've sat, uh, with, you know, in the audience with other people and, and they've watched the documentary, what are you hearing? What kind of feedback are you getting from those real people in those real communities?

[00:16:50] Kyle McDonnell: We do get usually like a, a lot of enthusiasm, but it's like, it's not over enthusiasm, but people are very grateful to come up [00:17:00] after and say like, how moving it was and, and, and how touching and like how they, if they aren't from farm backgrounds, they usually say they had no idea that this was a thing at all.

That it was just so shocking that they just have no idea, um, people who are from a farm background usually, uh, yeah. It's, it's a, it's a somber thank you. Usually.

[00:17:21] Van Wickiam: Yeah. Yeah, definitely like having people just like, I think a lot of conversations of the conversations we had across the, across the board while making this is that, you know, everyone seems to know somebody that's gone through to some degree, some of you know what we're talking about here. Um, there's an acknowledgement and there's, uh, appreciation for the fact that there's the issue being illuminated. And, and yeah, like Kyle said, you know, for folks that aren't aware and are outside of kind of agriculture like myself, they are shocked. And I think that's part of, you know, our primary focus is farmers, but there's also some education to happen here for the rest [00:18:00] of the country that aren't aware. We've, we've, we've got a lot of great feedback and it's been, it's been amazing to kind of get some of the, you know, the outreach that we've had from folks that have seen it and wanting to share it. It, it feels like what we're doing is, is, is meaningful and has some impact and, um, we want to get this film out there shown to as many people as possible and from there, have it start as many conversations as possible. You know, have it lead to somebody going and wanting to seek out mental health resources or wanting to share mental health resources with a loved one. Or ask somebody, Hey, you know, how are you doing? You know, mentally, like, you know, break down the barriers, breakdown, you know, the stigma. Anything that leads to some level of a conversation happening, I, I think is, you know, a huge success for, for, for us.

[00:18:56] Kyle McDonnell: Yeah. I think, like, if only a couple people ever reach out to services [00:19:00] because of the documentary, I think that's a huge success. Um, like that, that's really the, I think for, for me anyway.

[00:19:07] Merle Massie: Tell us about your connection with the four farmers who were profiled in Deep Rooted. What is your connection now? How are they, how did they react to the finished film?

[00:19:18] Kyle McDonnell: It's, it's been a variety. Uh, some of 'em are quite busy. So Darryl, who is one of the Ontario farmers, he's been very enthusiastic. He's joined us on some talks for the film. He is very down earth. He's very forthcoming. There is a language barrier communicating a little bit with Chantel in, in Quebec, but she said terrific job and loved the documentary when we watched it. Same with Kole. Um, Lynn unfortunately passed away last year from cancer. I did get a really sweet email yesterday actually from one of his friends thanking us for how we treat him in the film and that cherish memory for his family, which was very, very sweet and very touching, which I will forward to you Van.[00:20:00]

[00:20:00] Van Wickiam: Nice.

[00:20:00] Kyle McDonnell: Yeah. Been mostly pretty enthusiastic.

[00:20:03] Van Wickiam: Yeah, it's been amazing seeing, particularly, you know, Lynn's family and the, the interest to wanna see it and share it. And, uh, as we continue, it is a long journey. And as we kind of continue to do things with the film and, and opportunities come up, you know, we're always getting, you know, being met with positive responses from them.

If we're like, “Hey, are you interested in potentially joining us for this talk?” or that, and, uh, you know, which has been great. You know, we're very grateful for, you know, their time and them sharing their stories with us. Um. You know, they were, they were very generous with their time.

[00:20:40] Merle Massie: My final question is, if you were to talk to a community that has heard about Deep Rooted, was listening to this podcast say, we want to screen Deep Rooted, what do they need to know and, and what would a good screening look like?

[00:20:55] Kyle McDonnell: I mean, a good screening could take a lot of shapes or sizes. Um, [00:21:00] so I mean. As long as people are watching it, it's a good screening,

[00:21:04] Van Wickiam: I think. Yeah, we have, we have a website. We have a contact forum where you can directly request a screening. I think a successful screening looks like somebody watching it, hopefully with a lot of people.

Uh, and there being space for discussion afterwards that, you know, can lead to something where you know that it's a stepping stone to a greater conversation and reflection and, an opportunity to discuss, you know, what services are available or what gap in services need to be addressed. You know, something like that.

And, reach out, say, hi, let us know what you, you know, what, you know, if you want to screen there a few people or just watch it yourself. I, I mean, I think the, just messaging us through the contact form, the website's, the, the best way to get in touch.

[00:21:53] Merle Massie: Kyle and Van, thank you so much for joining us on Hay, Are We Okay?

And I think [00:22:00] that one of the things that we learned today is, hey, we ARE okay because we have people like you who are raising space for the conversation and putting the effort and the work in to make sure that we're thinking about the importance of mental health and mental illness across the Canadian agriculture community and worldwide.

You don't have to be inside the borders of Canada to watch Deep Rooted and to get something really important and powerful from it.

[00:22:25] Van Wickiam: For sure.

[00:22:26] Merle Massie: Thank you so much for your efforts to create Deep Rooted and thank, thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:22:31] Van Wickiam: Thank you for having us.

[00:22:32] Kyle McDonnell: Thank you for having us.

Yeah, it was a pleasure.

[00:22:36] Merle Massie: Van Wickiam and Kyle McDonnell are the two documentary makers behind Deep Rooted. It's a short film. It runs 33 minutes, and if you have a projector and a few chairs, it really is something any town or group can show. Deep Rooted screenings open that mental health conversation. To bring it to your town go [00:23:00] to

[00:23:01] Merle Massie: Thanks so much for joining us on the, Hey, are we okay? Podcast You being here tells me a whole lot about you. It tells me that you care not just about yourself, but about everybody around you. That makes you awesome.

[00:23:27] Merle Massie: This summer Do More Ag brought Deep Rooted to the Broadway Theater in Saskatoon and we invited the cast of Deep Rooted on stage. Afterward, Lesley Kelly joined the panel. She is Do More Ag's Co-Founder and appeared in the documentary. So did Kole Norman, he's the Saskatchewan farmer, featured in Deep Rooted.

[00:23:50] Kole Norman: It's, it's so easy to see your buddy and say, oh, you know, um, my calves yielded this much per pound, or, or, you know, I was getting this many bushels, but it's a lot harder to say, you [00:24:00] know, I, I'm not feeling so good. You know, I'm, I, I'm, I might be taking this medication or I'm not sleeping good. Or, I went and seen so and so.

Just being small town, everybody is so close, everybody knows everybody. Word spreads quickly too. Like you, you talk to somebody and then, you know, it doesn't take long. It's an hour later and the whole town knows it feels like. So, um, yeah, it's definitely, um, it's easier just to kinda push through and push past it and try to bury that.

But, as I learn, that's not the best way to go about things. And yeah, it's, yeah, I'll leave it at that.

[00:24:38] Lesley Kelly: It was so hard for us when we first started talking about it because I didn't know how to talk about it and I thought being the supporter that I had to know the right answers or have the right thing to say 'cause I was afraid I was going to make it worse [00:25:00] or, cause more harm.

But after learning all that and learning and, and, and seeing how the silence, the silence was killing my family, it was killing my husband. So I always think of, I embrace the uncomfortableness, the awkwardness, over the silence and a day, and, uh, even just small changes of changing the language on the farm.

Of coming from the world of a curating, supportive, language and, and changing that culture. And some of the questions that have really helped us on the farm is, you know, what's on your mind or what's heavy right now? Uh, what's the hardest parts? And now, now I got a teenager at 11 o'clock while I'm trying to sleep, he, he comes into the room and he wants to talk about the hardest parts of his day. And we talk about mental health with our farm team [00:26:00] at supper during harvest. So it's evolved to this big topic, and it is, but we've made these small strides that have, we've woven it into an everyday thing on the farm.

It's almost like we're talking about the weather, you know, the future of our farm, the future of the industry. I, I look to my kids and my kids now have role models like Darryl. And Kole. And when they have hard times, they can think of, well, they shared, or this is what they were going through. And it's not just on them to get help that they, because of the efforts of all these individuals that they will have, I hope, a community around them to feel that they can share and then get that help. So I had that sense of a great sense of community in this feeling.

[00:26:57] Merle Massie: I see you nodding your head. Could you please [00:27:00] pick up where Lesley just stopped?

[00:27:02] Kole Norman: Yeah, Leslie said it very well and just to, I guess add to what she said, I'm watching it back. Um, it's been a few months since I had watched it and uh, the emotions I felt. But also, um, just seeing how, how diverse the group was that was, um, within the film, but how, how it felt so personal. Like everybody's story. I was picking out something that I could relate to and it just felt like, it felt like I knew these people forever 'cause I was, I was totally in their shoes even though, um, most of 'em might have been older than me.

It's still felt so relatable. It was, yeah, it was, it was awesome.

[00:27:37] Merle Massie: That's Kole Norman. He's a member of the Flying Dust First Nation and ranches near Meadow Lake, Saskatchewan. Kole Norman was featured in the documentary Deep Rooted. We also heard from Lesley Kelly. Lesley farms near Watrous, Saskatchewan, and she was also in Deep Rooted.

As the [00:28:00] co-founder of Do More Ag, what she said there about being with people and feeling like your community gets it? That's the sweet spot. No one should have to face mental illness alone. We will walk farther when we walk together.

I want to thank our sponsor, the AGCO Foundation. They're championing mental health and getting behind, Hay, Are We Okay? They're here to help us inspire communities across Canada and around the world.

And a shout of thanks to Van Wickiam and Kyle McDonnell for those clips from Deep Rooted. Their webpage is deeprootedfilm.ca. And we'll put that link in our show notes. I'm your host, Merle Massie, [00:29:00] and I'm a farmer too. Catch you later.